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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 22, 2010 10:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

And there's also the problem that the design looks sometimes intelligent, and sometimes pretty stupid and cruel. If there was a designer, he or she was brilliant in some ways, but capricious and certainly not entirely benevolent.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 22, 2010 4:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

Benevolent to us doesn't mean there's not a larger picture that we can understand from our limited sense of time and space.

That's the answer to Job right?

And inordinate pride in ourselves precedes a fall.

This post was modified by spacedface on 2010-01-23 00:30:45

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 23, 2010 5:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

Fine - this designer was not entirely benevolent to *us*. Maybe he or she has some larger purpose in mind, but I fail to see why I should be interested in it, let alone *worship* such a deity, if it has no care for me.

I cringe hearing people in any disaster like Haiti saying that God blessed them or there is a God after all, when *their* loved ones are rescued safely, or *their* house didn't fall down. I understand why people say such things in extremis, but I'm left to assume God squashed all those other people, and is making the survivors suffer horribly, because he didn't like them, or forgot to bless them.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 23, 2010 7:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

"not entirely benevolent to *us*. ... such a deity, if it has no care for me."

Not entirely doesn't equate with no care. That reveals your feelings about God more than the nature of God himself (really an ungendered nonduality).


"I'm left to assume God squashed all those other people, and is making the survivors suffer horribly, because he didn't like them, or forgot to bless them."

Humans are that good at imagining the eons involved in the creation of the heavens and the earth. That's one thing that modern science has shown us -- the vastness of the cosmos. It could be that God was punishing some, purifying some, and elevating others.

It's not that hard to imagine in a country like Haiti that's been screwed so often in 200 years by those inside and out.

For me it's a bit worrisome in general and more self-interested terms. The big San Francisco earthquake will be bad enough, but if the right wing is in power it could be so much worse, in the light of the responses to New Orleans and Haiti.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 23, 2010 8:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

"It could be that God was punishing some, purifying some, and elevating others."

"It's not that hard to imagine in a country like Haiti that's been screwed so often in 200 years by those inside and out."

This, too, I have trouble following you. I don't subscribe to philosophies such as God punishing people with earthquakes. yuck. I think I might say back to you, "That reveals your feelings about God more than the nature of God himself."

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 23, 2010 9:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

Maybe you don't know about Haiti. I can't tell.

I'm sorta simple so I get a lot from rock songs. When I heard Robert Plant in "Heaven Knows" mention "with all the romance of the TonTon Macoutte," I looked it up. The Duvaliers, US supported dictators, employed the voodoo-ish Tonton Macoutes in a reign of terror against any opponents, including those who proposed progressive social systems.

The island of Hispaniola is where Columbus first landed, and has seen enormous suffering since. Haiti is the only country in the new world to gain independence from a slave revolt led by slaves, an so was seen as a danger to be punished by example by the European colonial powers.

Even Disney, the bastion of "family values," has paid Haitians starvation wages. Still, much of the suffering has been self-inflicted and the hall of mirrors nature of Haitians politics and violence is confusing.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 25, 2010 6:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

I do know a bit of this; I never got why any of that would mean the earthquake was a punishment.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 23, 2010 9:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

"I don't subscribe to philosophies such as God punishing people with earthquakes. yuck."

Again not everyone is punished ultimately; they maybe be purified or elevated.

It seems clear that nature (small n) is filled with examples of both beauty and awesome majesty.

Going down the road feeling bad
Going down the road feeling bad
Going down the road feeling bad, hey hey hey, yeah
Don't wanna be treated this a way

One saying attributed to Jesus:
~ The world is a Bridge, pass over it, but build no houses upon it. He who hopes for a day, may hope for eternity; but the World endures but an hour. Spend it in prayer for the rest is unseen.


This post was modified by spacedface on 2010-01-23 17:53:52

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 23, 2010 9:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or whatever from W. Somerset Maugham)

Tao. Some of us look for the Way in opium and some in God, some of us in whiskey and some in love. It is all the same Way and it leads nowhither.
W. Somerset Maugham, The Painted Veil, 1925

A God that can be understood is no God. Who can explain the Infinite in words?
W. Somerset Maugham, The Razor's Edge, 1943

..I couldn't but surmise that the devil, looking at the cruel wars that Christianity has occasioned, the persecutions, the tortures Christian has inflicted on Christian, the unkindness, the hypocracy, the intolerance, must consider the balance sheet with complacency. And when he remembers that it has laid upon mankind the bitter burden of the sense of sin that has darkened the beauty of the starry night and cast a baleful shadow on the passing plesures of a world to be enjoyed, he must chuckle as he murmurs: give the devil his due." [W. Somerset Maugham, "The Razor's Edge"]

D'you remember how Jesus was led into the wilderness and fasted forty days? Then, when he was a-hungered, the devil came to him and said: If thou be the son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But Jesus resisted the temptation. Then the devil set him on a pinnacle of the temple and said to him: If thou be the son of God, cast thyself down. For angels had charge of him and would bear him up. But again Jesus resisted. Then the devil took him into a high mountain and showed him the kingdoms of the world and said that he would give them to him if he would fall down and worship him. But Jesus said: Get thee hence, Satan. That's the end of the story according to the good simple Matthew. But it wasn't. The devil was sly and he came to Jesus once more and said: If thou will accept shame and disgrace, scourging, a crown of thorns and death on the cross thou shalt save the human race, for greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Jesus fell. The devil laughed till his sides ached, for he knew the evil men would commit in the name of their redeemer.
W. Somerset Maugham (1874-1965)
The Razor's Edge, 1944
Chapter 5, iv

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jan 24, 2010 6:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or whatever from W. Somerset Maugham)

http://haitirewired.wired.com/profiles/blogs/a-haitian-history-reading-list

A Haitian History Reading List from WIRED.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 23, 2010 7:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

Oh yeah--as Rob echo'd your comment, so did I...cringe is too weak of a word for it!

Argh...BTW, really enjoy kicking this all around with you, Rob, elb, jgl and SF...good stuff, but I truly hope I am not completely boring everyone to tears with all this lecture-esque drivel.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jan 23, 2010 8:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: God - non dead (or perhaps dead, according to Nietzsche)

Likewise. I mean, enjoying it. I always say I have no use for religion but I do tend to get drawn into religion-bashing discussions, and also may need to be told to back off I get too high and mighty. It's too easy to make fun of religion, sometimes.

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